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Cake day: August 5th, 2024

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  • You’re absolutely right. Generations jave been indoctrinated to give up autonomy and control to the system. People have been socially and economically backed into a corner where they don’t feel like they can make any real change in their lives.

    They know transcending class barriers is impossible (though they lie to themselves about it) and they don’t really believe that politics make a difference. People don’t vote. They scrabble at shit jobs and go into debt to feel richer.

    Violence is the one form of power they’re truly clinging to. A gun is a surrogate for control. It’s power you can exert in your narrow sphere.

    Most of this perception is wrong, but it’s a part of the culture. The idea that the only way this can get fixed is violent civil war is a game of chicken with the ruling class and they’re betting that people won’t actually rise up.


  • Absolutely. I really am arguing for how the law is written, but it’s unfortunately just not applied fairly to police. Americans should demand that it is, especially since protection from the government is the whole point of major sections of the Constitution.

    Shaver’s a great example of how excluding evidence is used to just 100% give the case to the cops. They couldn’t use the video OR the “you’re fucked” engraving on the cop’s gun? Fuck outta here with that. Maybe you can make the prejudicial > probative argument on the etching, but… no. And the video being excluded is just beyond the bounds of reasonable.


  • First, disclaimer, I hadn’t looked at the Minnesota statute, so I was only speaking a general model code approach. Second, I don’t know if the intent would be to try the ICE guy under this standard since he wouldn’t usually fit the definition of a law enforcment officer (“peace officer”) under Minnesota state law.

    But, also, that language is a lot less generous than you’re making it out to be. The broader legal concept of “…known to or perceived by the officer…” still points to a “reasonable officer” in their shoes. The “known” and “perceived” are more about things like “dispatch said the suspect has a weapon” or “he reached into his pocket and drew a gun (which later we found out was a toy).” If an officer used deadly force in that situation, they’d be evaluated based on their actions without perfect hindsight (the knowledge that the gun was fake), but still under the “reasonable officer” standard. And their perceptions still need to be within the bounds of credibility and reality.

    In this case, ICE guy would have to be able to say something like “the wheels were turned towards fellow Officer White” and “the woman revved the engine and lurched forward, making me believe he was going to be struck” and then those things would have to be articulable perceptions of events at the time. They’re still going to be able to be questioned and the jury could disagree with their stated perceptions (lies). And after that, his response (the shooting) would be evaluated by the jury based on if his actions were reasonable for an officer in his shoes.

    The language around “quick judgements” is speaking more to an reasonable mistake of fact (fake gun for real gun) in the situation. This is a bit of a legal shield for them, but doesn’t excuse wildly incorrect judgements outright. And, no, this statute doesn’t speak specifically about training, but this language applies to what Minnesota deems “peace officers,” and there are requirements for certification and training in those statutes and administrative codes.

    And I think we can agree to disagree on the idea that him doing something stupid doesn’t have bearing on whether the shooting is justified under the law. That statute has a requirement for deescalation, for example. My reading of the Minnesota statutes is that they actually set a very high standard of expectation for their prace officers (as far as US law enforcement goes). Whether or not they actually hold them to those standards? Hard to say. But, at least according to stats I could pull in a quick google, they’re 45th in police killings, so… good for them?

    But I agree that it’s tough to get a jury to come back with a conviction. I’d argue that a large part of that is because of the deep deference courts give to law enforcement and how much that taints trials against the police. Plus, here, it’s likely it’d get removed to federal court, which makes it even more suspect right now. And that’s assuming they overcome federal supremacy/immunity stuff and bring state charges at all. It’s infuriating because I can’t not see this as blatant violations of Constitutional protection and so it should be a slam dunk case against the ICE agent at the federal level (and probably the state level).

    It’d be interesting to see how a jury of Minnesotans would feel, given the totality of the circumstances.


  • This is not the legal standard at all. It is very specifically not based on the perception of the officer. It’s based on whether a hypothetical reasonable person would have taken those same actions.

    The ICE officer probably won’t testify or share their feelings. And if they do, the standard is still based solely on their actions viewed through the lens of this hypothetical reasonable person. The defense will argue that they justifiably feared for their life (or whatever their statutory standard is), but the officer’s claimed perceptions are irrelevant.

    Imagine an insane cop shoots someone because they think they’re a space alien trying to probe them, but it’s actually just some guy trying to stab the cop. The reasonable person standard means you’d assess the shooting based on the supposed actions of a reasonable person. Would a reasonable person have shot them? Probably. So, even if a shooter is motivated by the delusional belief that their target is a “space alien” intent on probing them, the act is legally justified if the target was posing an actual, objective threat—such as an attempted stabbing. Because a “reasonable person” would use force to stop a knife attack, the shooter’s bizarre motivation does not negate the fact that the use of force was objectively necessary. In this case, the subjective fear of the officer is irrelevant if the act was objectively unreasonable.

    And, yeah, of course the courts bend over backwards to suck cops’ dicks and they get away with murder all the time. But, honestly, how many cops are even criminally charged? At trial, in front of a jury, it’s harder to prove. We just usually don’t see indictments and when we do, often important evidence is excluded in favor of law enforcement.


  • This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the construction of the law. As designed, it doesn’t matter what the individual was thinking. It matters what a hypothetical “reasonable person” would be thinking or doing in the circumstance. It’d be up to the finder of fact to determine if the actions were reasonable (though, here, depending on charges, it might be “reasonable officer”).

    There are also potential wrinkles like qualified immunity, but that might be hard to prove in a basically unprovoked killing like this. Additionally, the broad leeway afforded to police might not be there in this case since the State would actually be seeking a conviction and other courts have openly started not giving ICE the benefit of the doubt.

    But the key takeaway here is that it’s less important what this murderer was thinking when he did the murder and more important whether a “reasonable person/officer/[whatever]” would have been justified in taking those actions.