I suggest that thread. Maybe you’re not excusing it then, but at least trivialising it. You wouldn’t do it the other way around, or in same scenario with other actors. You commented like that, because you feel affiliated with Ukraine and have a more dismissal attitude towards Russia and China.
You mean the US? The Zelensky regime?
It’s rich, tho, that you pretend to care about Ukrainians, as you find excuses to extend the war effort and with that keep feeding Ukrainian men into the meat grinder against their will, by kidnapping them off the streets. You could advocate for negotiations, but borders are more important to you, than human live. You don’t give the slightest shit about the Ukrainians.
Thanks, I know. It’s a play on your own cheeky remark:
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the ukrainians would do that. Buuuut (excuse state terrorism)
Have a good day, same person!
Yes, sure, must be it.
I mean. I don’t think anyone was suggesting echodot would imply otherwise. Must be Russian Kool-Aid.
Nah man. I’m not denying reality, of course Russia did invade Ukraine. You’re not proving or disproving anything, lol. The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?
Your yapping about the German government, pretending like there’s no bigger dynamics going on is just as ridiculous as your pseudo-innocent takes. Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it’s only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, … dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.
Obvisously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that’s a valid concern, so I understand why, but (…)
Ah, right, that’s where you coming from. Quite exposing from an anti-zionist perspective. Way to defend a genocide supporting and war facilitating country. Very considered of you.
That doesn’t mean that Russia isn’t targeting civilians in this war. It’s not the good guy.
Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven’t explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1
It doesn’t need to be at war with Ukraine.
But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It’s not like there’s an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there’s no reason to ignore reality. Except, if you’re ignorant, not interested in truth seeking or have an agenda.
Unfortunately the world is more complicated than “the West is bad and everyone against the West is good”.
Unfortunately, I didn’t say that “everyone against the West is good”. That’s not even an argument, it’s nothing but an empty phrase. You’ve got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.
Thanks for showing your allegiance. So you’re not acting out of naivity, but purposefully. Noted. You know, back in early '24, if you acted like that, but focused on the topic of I/P, you’d be marked as a Hasbara agent. You gotta stay more organic and sincere with your answers. Your professional deflection speak is unauthentic. Say, have you considered not to sell your soul?
Ukraine has no international goodwill and also does not rely on it. Ukraine solely depends on the goodwill of the Western capitalist block, as it’s a puppet to fight a proxy war for them in order to weaken Russia. This is official policy, as I have explained and sourced in another comment. It’s really only the US and it’s close allies that vilify Russia. The rest of the world knows full well, that this is a farce, an attempt of Western Imperialism to subdue and deconstruct Russia in order to encircle China. This. Is. Official. Policy. Ukraine is the victim of Western Imperialism, a puppet, a proxy; this is consensus outside of the Western sphere of influence. Supporting the ongoing war effort, means supporting the demise of the Ukrainian people and the Russian people, means supporting the West’s strategy to destroy Russia to gain Lebensraum, resources, power and encircle China.
Ukraine has long sold off it’s own resources and sovereignty for material support and credit, it’s now so highly in debt, that it will never be able to pay it back. It will have to give everything they’ve got left to Western banks and finance capital for investment opportunities. I don’t know if you already forgot the power differential between Trump and Zelensky; he’s a puppet. And no, that’s not Russia’s fault. You people celebrate the abuse of the Ukrainian people by the US and Europe, because you think their brothers in the east are the culprits. How do you on the one side manage to realize the horrific role the West plays in the Palestinian genocide, the US/Israel war on Iran, the bombing of innocent people. All well supported by every major European country accept Spain, which denied base access to the US, spoke out against the genocide and promptly got chastised for it … how do you keep turning around to Ukraine and seriously think, this is a good and righteous war in the interest of the Ukrainian people? It’s so disgusting.
Now, if the few western Lemmy internet people believe that or not is not even of any direct consequence, other than to make sure the populous does not rebel against the West’s war effort, everybody stays in line and makes sure the general consensus in the EU is to become fit for war, to activate enough willing soldiers and supporters for the good cause™ to defend™ our values™, freedom™ and way of life™ (aka, directly attacking with NATO power by use of some kind of false flag, as is etiquette), because, you know, the evil Russians are coming for us (which they’re not even).
The very same kind of war propaganda since before WW2, when it was important for German capital to fight the judeo-bolshevik brute from the east (aka communism) and later throughout the Cold War through Red Scare propaganda. This never stopped. The propaganda never stopped. Today the end game is China. And you people keep wondering what’s up with all the right winginess throughout the West - sheeesh, that’s capitalism for you, mutating into fascism, because it’s in a crisis it can’t lift itself out of. Western capital outsourced all of its production forces to cheaper global south countries and now has nothing left to innovate and produce, get’s overtaken by a new socialist super power, China. The west just can’t compete in their own system. All that’s left is war economy. VW is planning to switch to weapons manufacturing in Germany (Osnabrück), and several US and Israeli weapons manufacturers are planning to build factories in structurally week regions (Elbit Systems in Sangerhausen, Covenant in Leipzig), where people are desperate for jobs. (German examples, because I’m German and more involved in that country’s politics). The government just yesterday officially blamed Russia for a drone incident, that they can’t show because they don’t even have any evidence for. They just claim it is so, with trust me bro logic, in order to escalate relations and fearmonger their citizens into compliance.
Once Europe’s elite decides they’re prepared well enough, they will force their own working class to go die on the front for the interests of the capitalist ruling class. Russia and China are the West’s adversaries, so Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West), has always had a very strong motive to escalate and to involve other countries in the actual war, in the hopes they don’t have to do it all alone, with the mere weaponry support of the west; sending their own men, while Western Europe doesn’t need to send their own, because Ukraine has to fight their war for them.
If you’re serious with your demeanour, I find you horribly naive. To the point where I’m inclined to think you’re doing this purposefully, since you’re so busy posting Western war propaganda.
TL;DR:
No, Ukraine’s government is not relying on international goodwill.
Yes, Ukraine’s government has a lot of reasons to escalate.
Let’s not pretend Ukraine ultra echodot up there was articulating a pragmatic and neutral scenario. But if you do, you can also pretend to have entirely identical feelings on similar scenarios involving other players.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Russians would do that. Buuuut if a German aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Ukrainian airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Israelis would do that. Buuuut if a Spanish aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Palestinian airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Lebanese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Israeli airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Iranians would do that. Buuuut if a Israeli aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in the Emirate’s airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Saudis would do that. Buuuut if a Iranian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Yemeni airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the US-Americans would do that. Buuuut if a Russian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Venezuelans would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the Chinese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Taiwanese airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the French would do that. Buuuut if a Mali aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Burkina Faso airspace, well then it’s just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
Or, you could admit that you make differences, depending on who’s who.
You declared (…) solely on the reason (…)
No, I declared you a prime example, because you were immediately using Whataboutism hinged on these three main adversaries (and none other), which only exist as a narrative because the US government declared them as such and you combined these name drops with western propaganda talking points in an attempt, and as the sole reason to comment at all, to discredit a well formulated critique of the US … on a post about the US committing war crimes. It’s like a learned behaviour.
listen to what Trump is saying about Putin.
Trump’s word isn’t gospel, his actions are
It’s getting confusing.
Russia is not “the only country he hasn’t placed tariffs on”, as the US actually has placed tariffs on Russia, as well as heavy sanctions. But you know, the importance of tariffs vanishes, if you can just sanction a country out of the market and into compliance, anyway? There’s also almost no tariffs on the DPRK or Cuba, because they are heavily sanctioned already. Namely secondary sanctions (which are against international law), that disallow other countries to trade with the sanctioned countries.
how he fought his own party to prevent sanctions being placed on Russia
Maybe it’s me, but I find this to be theatre. But maybe you can write down your actual thinking on how the overall dynamics work here., you sound like you’re heavily on the Krasnov theory.
Don’t fantasise about war crimes, just because you think you’re on the right team. It’s not that complicated.
With that kind of quality commentary you could make a career as mod on MoL.
(…) cartwheel through a series of sociopolitical facts that (…) are not actually saying anything
So, as you surely don’t want to end up not actually saying anything … what are the things that are facts, but also don’t mean anything and why do they not mean anything in the context of this conversation?
Since when is Trump’s word gospel? Also, who cares, if you’re US-American.
Of course, killing however many civilians is always just collateral, if the right side does it.
And by listing the three major US enemies (currently) in two comments, with reasoning provided by their very media apparatus, you’re the prime example on how the tighter control on media (and social media) actually affects the populace. Thanks for participating.
Curious, you are the very “folks on Lemmy (that) are basing their political understanding on vibes and what western corporate media tells them.”
If you’re unable to see, I’d suggest to do something against that. Maybe see a doctor, get a service dog or something.
I’m not sure what to tell you, that will satisfy you (there’s nothing, because you’re weird like that). You’re commenting that on a post about the Ukrainian president openly threatening to commit state terrorism, while you are also defending that by whatabouting with some weird ass “but they did it first” with questionable logic in another comment, merely reproducing western narratives.
I don’t think you understand the Russian POV, or that of any state outside the imperial core for that matter, because I don’t believe you even take these states seriously at all. All I see is chauvinism.
Beyond that, the rest of the world, outside of the western block, is not tightening any noose on Russia, quite the contrary, as they understand, that this is a proxy war and NATO is actively working to destroy the country for their own ambitions towards world domination since well over a decade now, using Ukraine as a battleground to do so.
To gain what exactly?
Ya, I think I answered that with my previous comment. Maybe read it again and try to understand its contents.
Which is in fact true, this is part of the US‘s pivot to Asia (since Obama). If you‘d care you could read about that stuff in their National Security Strategy papers, like the one from 2022 under Biden and from 2025 under Trump.
China is the main threat for western Capitalism, most importantly for the US Empire, as they are the currency monopoly, military bully and world hegemon. Russia as the strongest ally of China protects China‘s northern land mass border just by existing. For that it‘s important to balkanize Russia (the U.S. Helsinki Commission actually calls it „Decolonizing Russia: A Moral and Strategic Imperative“). This means to forcefully break the country up into smaller, more manageable regions.
Anyway, the general idea for Europe is to take care of Russia, so the US is able to focus on the indo-pacific, meaning China. It‘s the geo-strategic reality of the western block to remain (or regain) world dominance. It‘s capitalism in it‘s highest stage, imperialism.
This is a very common political analysis, not only shared by communists. It‘s just that most folks on lemmy are basing their political understanding on vibes and what western corporate media tells them. It‘s a choice to go beyond that.
Lol.
I‘m a semi-technical user, I don‘t want a technical discussion, I want facts I‘m able to understand. If you‘d be knowledgeable, you should be able to explain it. You didn‘t, tho. You used a lot of words, but said nothing. Why should your arrogant, but empty yapping do anything for me?
Please stop arguing about shit you have no clue of by making shit up while you go.
Morals have weight homie, hand waving away immoral acts by saying they’re just opinions is obtuse at best.
You lost the argument up there.
How do you measure the weight of morals? What happens if you leave the dimension of mere opinion? Please do not answer.
Interesting answer. So, do you actually care for Ukrainian lives?
Haha.