I know how to read, rationalwiki is wrong. Again, they extrapolated numbers based on a tiny sample size. It’s pretty simple, RationalWiki goes to great lengths to justify the US State Department narrative. Funny that you cite another CIA cutout, Radio Free Asia. Statistical analysis shows no evidence of sterilization campaigns for Uyghur people.

You’re getting lost in the sauce, Zenz used this picture of a clinic as evidence of sterilization:

The reason why I focus on Zenz, is because the only “evidence” you’ve brought is from him alone. I asked you to read the UN report, and China’s response, and instead you decided that it’s better to keep going back to Adrian Zenz and the Xinjiang Police Files as your only allegations. I gave you something more credible to work with, with more serious allegations, and you instead picked RFA (CIA cutout), the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (CIA cutout), Adrian Zenz (far-right professional propagandist, islamophobe, downplayer of Palestinian genocide, and christofascist homophobe), and one opinion blog.

The fact that independent muslim sources that found no evidence of genocide, and as such are in favorable trade agreements with China, does not in any way mean that they were pressured into doing so. Many orgs have gone to China to see the re-education centers in Xinjiang, and allegations of genocide have been dropped by everyone except CIA cutouts and western propagandists for lack of evidence.

Disengage if you want, but you can’t both disengage and get the last word in in the same comment. I’m not a troll, but I suspect you are.

You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong. Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size. You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong, you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis just to serve your own right-wing political ends.

Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz. I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up. The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.

Uyghur population growth in Xinjiang exceeeds the average population growth in Xinjiang. Further, the “Xinjiang Police Files,” sourced by Zenz, contain entirely fabricated stories about the vast majority of the people in it (names redacted from the public release):

As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page:

They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.” These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T. This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.

I’ve moved no goalposts. You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ. For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.

This is what Zenz writes:

Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?

He also downplays actual islamophobia:

RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology, as “even the far-right can be correct.” However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented. If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis, including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide, then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.

Edit: to respond to a few of your edits, you were homophobic by saying I am defending “daddy Xi,” using contextual societal shame towards gay relationships as a weapon against me discrediting far-right slander. As for your defense of the far-right, you’re defending a far-right CIA propagandist and a right-liberal opinion blog in wiki form.

Correct, RationalWiki is run by right-wing liberals. Read the article linked, the sources are cited on the article and you can check them yourself. For example, Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated:

The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.

As for sources on the Arab League visiting Xinjiang and finding no evidence of genocide, here’s Middle East Monitor reporting on it. I already linked this to you before, but this is an additional source just for fun. It’s really easy to find this online. As for pretty much all major allegations of genocide leading back to Zenz, here’s an example from BBC, which merely reports what Zenz says with little commentary.

Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you, given your defense of the far-right. You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet, all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible, and right-liberal RationalWiki is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.

Your source “debunking” the Grayzone is RationalWiki, which is a right-wing misinformation justification wiki. Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.

Further, again, Zenz is misrepresenting the data. The only source on him not misrepresenting the data is himself. You further don’t actually tackle how he is misrepresenting the data, you’re just misrepresenting how Xinjiang now has higher access to birth control as “forced sterilization,” a claim that has no backing beyond Zenz’ own words.

Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.

I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.

I already debunked the forced sterilization narrative in this comment, all you’ve done is link more people circling back to Zenz’ deliberate falsification of data, along with chauvanistic claims that China wants Han supremacy. In fact, like all other ethnic minorities, Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, and all ethnic minorities have better representation at the NPC than the Han majority precisely to make sure the voices of ethnic minorities in China are not shut out.

You are defending a far-right professional propagandist that has been caught over and over manipulating data and falsifying information.

Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:

Zenz is a professional propagandist, known for manipulating or falsely representing data, and outright fabricating data to suit his needs. The US Empire spends billions on discrediting China through any means they can. Trusting Zenz and data that comes exclusively from Zenz is not a reliable measure. Further, the Arab League visited China, and found no evidence backing claims of genocide.

Zenz also deflects whenever Palestine is brought up, indicating that he has no interest in human rights, but only about attacking China:

I must have had close to 50 tankies request that I say something about Palestine. Is that the only atrocity against Muslims that they care about? Do they condemn a wide range of rights violation anywhere, anytime they happen? I research western China’s ethnic minorities.

Instead of accusing others of the equivalent to creationism, why not instead question the actual christofascist you seem to have absolute faith in providing totally real evidence? Zenz claims he is on a mission from God to punish China. Instead, why not read the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz.

Not really sure what you mean by “not believing in yhe withering away narrative.” The basis of the state, ie the political structures for ensuring the supremacy of a given class, is the class struggle. States arose when classes arose, not the other way around. Once a worker state has collectivized all production and distribution, the class struggle gradually dies away, and with it special political mechanisms for ensuring worker supremacy. All that remains is administration and management in a classless society, stateless and all.

Either way, as much as I personally align more with groups like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, I understand that they are a minority faction. Palestine’s path to social progress can only truly become unfetteted when it is liberated from genocide. Palestinians by and large are not protesting Hamas, and the Resistance is largely unified at this present moment against a common enemy.

In that sense, I agree, as activists and organizers outside of Palestine, it’s on us to focus on our own governments for supporting Israel’s settler-colonial project and genocide. The reaction to Israel is created by Israel’s own oppression, this is straight from Fanon’s analysis of nationalist resistance to colonialism. The people of Palestine have chosen the unified resistance, with Hamas as the largest faction, to break free of their chains. Any movement towards socialism will come after breaking free of Israel.

China is democratic. The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

When looking at why people in China believe it’s democratic, it’s because policy in China consistently aims at satisfying the needs of the people and consistently achieves results. Democracy is rule by the majority, and in China the working classes are in power. “Indoctrination” doesn’t work that way, Chinese citizens are more than capable of understanding if rule by the majority exists or not, and trying to rely on a narrative of “indoctrination” just sidesteps the entire conversation.

This is pure projection.

China is not debt trapping poor African nations. We can see that this isn’t the case when we can observe countries in BRI engaging in rapid development and industrializing, and this is confirmed by China forgiving tons of debt. The goal of China isn’t to make countries reliant on them, or to earn money from debt, it’s because China gains personally through mutual development. Here are some articles debunking the “debt trap” myth:

• Five Imperialist Myths About China’s Role in Africa

• China debt trap? PH an ‘expert in bad loans,’ Locsin says

• Deborah Brautigam Debunks the Chinese Debt Trap Theory in New Research Paper

• China’s Debt Relief for Africa: Emerging Deliberations

There are many more examples I can use. China isn’t doing this out of the goodness of their own heart, but because they stand to gain from mutual development. A more developed global south means China is less reliant on the US Empire as a customer, provides new avenues to facilitate trade, and creates more markets for customers. The west harvests the global south for cheap labor and resources, and we can see hard comparisons in data between BRI participants and those imperialized by the west to see fundamentally different results.

My point is that no bad has been done, and you’re acting like it has been, simply because China is loaning Laos money for development as two socialist countries.

Thanks!

Both governments consider themselves the legitimate governments of China, which includes Taiwan. Wanting to become an independent country entirely is a minority opinion in Taiwan. As such, the PRC as a sovereign nation of course will reserve the right to retake its own territory by force. It isn’t at all surprising that they haven’t taken more direct millitant action against Taiwan, though, for precisely the reasons I have said: they are willing to wait until Taiwan chooses to reunify. They gain nothing by striking Taiwan to take it by force, when they can just maintain the status quo until it works out in their favor.

The reason it’s surprising to you is that you have the assumption that the PRC feels compelled to strike. This is something constantly fearmongered about by the west, but doesn’t actually hold water. By all measures, events seem to be moving in the exact direction the PRC predicts they will, which would make it a mistake to strike Taiwan.

How does, say, China’s model of Whole Process People’s Democracy, a form of democracy based on consultative democracy, flow from classical liberalism? Liberal models of voting for parties or single representatives don’t map at all to China’s form of democracy, yet China is consistently seen as more democratic by its own citizens than liberal democracies are by their own citizens:

These are stark differences and are reflective of Marxism as opposed to liberalism.

Nope, socialist democracy exists and is a break from individualist styles of democracy espoused by liberalism.

Palestinian statehood is necessary for the protection of the Palestinian people against Israel. The “two-state solution” isn’t a solution, sure, but it is better than the current status, and the actual solution is a single Palestinian state until states can wither away.

You can’t pin your entire economy on a single company in a single sector, especially when your performance isn’t certified forever.

Here’s what Thongloun said:

In his New Year greetings to Xi, Thongloun said that with Xi’s care and guidance, traditional Laos-China friendship has grown stronger, political mutual trust has deepened, and their comprehensive strategic cooperation has yielded fruitful results.

Thongloun has pledged to instruct various departments of his country to work with the Chinese side to ensure the success of the celebrations marking the 65th anniversary of diplomatic relations and the friendship year, build a Laos-China community with a shared future with high standards, high quality and high level, and continue to elevate bilateral relations and practical cooperation in all fields to new heights in the new era, setting an example for building a community with a shared future for humanity.

It isn’t just a baseless “trust me bro,” China daily just reported on diplomacy between Laos and China. Either way, it sounds like you’re confusing the potential for bad for bad itself, for the time being there’s absolutely nothing to suggest China taking advantage of Laos.

Again, can you elaborate? I think you’re replying to the wrong comment, harambe69 hasn’t been arguing with anyone, they just posted a somewhat racist comment and left. What “state-owned tabloid” has anyone linked that discredits them entirely?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by me linking a “state-owned tabloid?” The large majority of sources I link are western, because I know I would get accusations of bad-faith if I primarily linked Chinese or otherwise global south sources (regardless of accuracy, truth, or legitimacy). This character assassination holds no water whatsoever, you can feel free to argue against the sources I’ve linked if you like but making up conspiracy theories about me is low.

China does frequently forgive loans. As socialist countries, China and Laos have strong friendship and cooperative ties. Laos is not in any danger from the loans, and has been steadily developing partially with the assistance of said loans.